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 MJ-12 has me wondering

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Tethys13
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PostSubject: MJ-12 has me wondering    Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:12 pm

Can someone please break it down for me and explain what is supposedly a hoax and what is actually fiction? Especially since renowned man of the hour Stanton Friedman investigated the majority of what the claims were. I kept thinking it got all meshed because of all the stuff surrounding Doty and then of course the Bob Lazar phase in ufo history. Perhaps I have read so much over the years I am now filled with so much info-dis-info.. can't keep it all straight anymore..

Ufology leads you down that path - then you turn a corner - enter the conspiracy gate- find a hole in a floor and find the conspiracy with in a conspiracy - enter hoaxers -end with skeptic... you have a recipe for going insane.

Thoughts on any of this? I am curious because a huge part of me does believe in alien technology and our use of it. To what extent I cannot say. I believe there were crashes we recovered and reversed the technology- but I am not sure I believe we are working with them.. then again after reading "Raechel's Eyes." I could be more wrong than anything in the world.

I just feel I need to be safely skeptical. But the MJ-12 was mentioned in that book so I was curious - after having figured it was probably fake. The story was so compelling in the book and so bizarre it sounds like the kind of far fetched jargin that actually turns out to be true.

It all got me thinking and got my mind racing.

I have been on BlackVault.com and over the years it has gotten filled with so much stuff it is really hard to keep track of all the informaion. While interesting it hurts your head.

I think a course in college on UFO's and Cover-ups and ufology could be in order. You would probably need 101,-201 to get it all straight!!!

scratch
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:54 pm

Here is an explanation of what happened and where the case is today:

In 1984, Jaime Shandera and William Moore had documents delivered to their address with no return address. Inside, they found microfilm of documents pertaining to be the MJ-12 Documents which were about the recovery of an extraterrestrial craft and some beings. A few crashes are mentioned and the documents go into details such as what was found and the results of some of the tests.

It was thoroughly researched by several leading researchers, some who say it is a hoax and others who claim it might still be real.

The ones who say it is a hoax state the numerous mistakes made by the person making the copy, from dating methods to the ranks of certain personnel. Mr Friedman had countered this argument by finding other old documents with the same types of mistakes.

While Mr Friedman thinks there are some fake documents out there, he has claimed a few are the real deal and they cannot be proven to be hoaxes. (There are a few memos that stand on their own aside from the MJ-12 documents which are possibly real. They mention extraterrestrials, but are not explicit in a case.) The FBI even looked at the documents and could not determine if they were real. (There is a good book called "Out There" by Howard Blum a journalist which I recommend.)

The problem with the MJ-12 Documents is one of the cases it alleges has now been shown to be either a hoax or false. I believe the main documents to of been created with the intent to make everyone think they are all fake in case the real deal is leaked. I also think the Twining Memo is real and there really is a group of people who are in charge of this area. According to Lt Col Kevin Randle (USAR-Ret), they are referred to as the Unholy 13 by several of his contacts.

So far, most of the researchers are stating the documents are fake, although they have yet to be ultimately proven to be. But I do think (along with others) that some documents have actually been leaked and are all thought to be fakes because of the MJ-12 Documents.

The good news from all the research and hard work of Mr Stanton Friedman is he found many other documents that would not of been found about UFOs out there. He also found that then debunker and noted astronomer Dr Donald Menzel (who was on the list and puzzled many people) secretly worked for the government in a high level classified job through his widow and papers supporting it.

There are also other claims of papers and documents being written by others suggesting this is not only real, but very much active. Some papers found after the owner passed also show some written statements that (if they are proven true) show this stuff to be reality. I have to look for one of my books, but one scientist from Canada basically states we have extraterrestrials. The paper is in his handwriting and was found after he passed away by a family member.

I do think it is a good idea to pick up a book about the MJ-12 documents from both sides of the fence to read up on it. There are many questions both sides leave unanswered, but I do think we will get to know the truth hopefully in the near future. Here are a few to consider:

Top Secret/Majic: Operation Majestic-12 and the United States Government's UFO Cover-up by Stanton T. Friedman (Pro)

Case MJ-12: The True Story Behind the Government's UFO Conspiracies by Lt Col Kevin Randle (Con)

Both men are top notch researchers and have come to different conclusions. These are not out there books with wild claims, but show the tireless research done on this subject.
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:44 am

thank you for clarifying that for me. I have read so much stuff on other sites it gets jumbled as to what I even believe anymore. It is really hard not to think it is all a crock but when you go to the actual crash sites of places like Roswell you cannot deny that something happened. I will always believe in Roswell. I don't care what people say. The town makes money off it but when you go to the museum and read the actual information and see some of the family photos from some of the people involved if anything it was the damage done to the people behind it. If there was no UFO then there was some major hurt there with the people involved.

My mom was a hardcore skeptic till I took her there. She became really obsessed with cow mutilation. It is one thing that has enough evidence to prove to her that something possibly out of this world was going on.

I have one of Randle's books I cannot remember the name of it. I bought it at an airport Very Happy

Didn't he also do a book or a tv special some years ago with real air pilots that saw UFO's? I know it was one of those folks. I cannot remember the name of it now.. darn it.
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:14 am

Kevin Randle has many books out there and some of them do cover the best cases out there. Currently, he is writing a book with a group of individuals on the latest finds of Roswell. I have several books of his and he does his research quite well. I also like Stanton Friedman, and do think both of the books I mentioned give good pros and cons about the authenticity of MJ-12, including all the latest finds and where it stands with the other memos.

Too many sites out there just go straight to the underground alien/military bases and all things out there. It may be fun to speculate on, but many skeptics and debunkers point to those sites and condemn all of ufology.

I also like Howard Blum's book "Out There" and recommend it as he is one of the first serious journalists to look at all things UFO. It was written in the 1990s, but still holds up very well. While there is no smoking gun of evidence, it does point there is a real mystery out there.

Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for Extraterrestrials by Howard Blum
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:13 am

I forgot to look for my other book. But I read it for two hours on my way to Arizona from Florida about 11 years ago. It had some very interesting photos and they talked about the foo fighters. They talked about how some of the planes during WWII were chased by unknown lights and such. It was a very good read. Short and sweet and not hard or boring to follow. Nothing worse for me than when I'm really interested in a subject and the person writing thinks everyone is a technical genius. I get lost because I have that artsy fartsy brain that doesn't do well with that stuff. It is like my brain gets bored at the sight. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:10 am

Richard Dolan's two books about the National Security State are must reading as he chronicles a lot of sightings and incidents. He does not judge and looks at it all from how the military and security of our country responded to the incidents.

UFOs and the National Security State: Chronology of a Coverup (Vol 1 and Vol 2 with Vol 3 coming soon) by Richard Dolan.

Those books are great for reference and contain a lot of information.
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:41 am

I found one of my old books, I couldn't find the one by Kevin Randle.. probably lost it along the many moves over the years. But I did find the one I had read and was actually pretty good it was by some unknown guy and Whitley Strieber. Cool

Not a work of fiction just a list of sightings. I need to write the name of it down I keep forgetting.
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:18 am

Lt Col Randle has written almost 100 books (including many fiction) so it can be difficult to nail down a specific title. I have ordered many of his books, and still have quite a few on my wishlist. I recently ordered his book on the MJ-12 papers to keep for references.
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:37 pm

I saw some of the documents on Theblackvault.com website.

I am not sure how to interpret some of that stuff on that site. In 1999 it went up and has been up since. At the time the then "kid" had this amazing site with so much stuff. Now it seems there are so many documents on there it is hard to understand from what and why and where. I think you would need a Ufo Conspiracy class 101 to grasp some of the main points. They should offer that in colleges instead of some of the useless stuff I had to pay to take.. bounce
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:03 pm

Jim Marrs has taught a course on conspiracy theories when he was still teaching college (he has since retired).

That is why I think it is good to have the two books I listed above as they do go over all the documents and make their cases both for and against.

They also show the entire documents out there which is great for referencing.
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:56 am

I will have to refer to this site and grab those when I'm done with the current two books I am reading now.
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:27 pm

I have Mr Friedman's book and had to order Kevin Randle's (I read his in a library). Once I get the copy, I will reread both books to get a feel again as it has been a while.

I know what you mean as I have a book reading waiting list also.
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:01 am

I try not to read too much when I'm writing so it doesn't interfere with my creativity. Don't want to subconsciously copy what I'm reading.

I have been writing a bit lately. I think the idea you had to do it on here was a very brilliant idea. It had never occured to me. I was so preocupied by all the pazazz of scientific proofing. I have been wanting to have the group meet up in Salem Mass one year. No one has really had the money yet. I may book a room there anyhow in case I plan for a long weekend somewhere. It is about 8-10 hours from here. So.. not a shabby drive. Plus the scenery is gorgeous.

I strongly advise anyone cyber lurking on her to have their own group meetings. I find it mentally fulfilling. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:53 pm

My brother and some of his friends are interested in these subjects. I am thinking of getting together for meetings to discuss them.

BTW, here is Kevin Randle's blog address:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/

It is very interesting and well written.
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:53 am

Thanks for that!

P.s. again don't forget to feed the heards hahaha

Last night at my meeting I did not buy any sweets. And my friend said (jokingly of course) I guess I can't stay then if you are dieting.. I said oh don't worry I guarentee someone coming will bring cookies and chips and dip!

And they did. Razz

They love topics - but gotta feed them too.=!!! pig oinkers..
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:49 pm

I should also add Stanton Friedman's site also:

http://www.stantonfriedman.com/

He does update it and has a lot of articles where he discusses MJ-12 and other subjects. He also does not like the claims made by Bob Lazar.

http://www.stantonfriedman.com/index.php?ptp=articles&fdt=2011.01.07
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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:19 am

I have read his blog he is very good at explaining things to people so that us non scientist types understand it.

His hill of beans amounts to more than some of his friend Strieber's claims. I was listening to an episode of Coast to Coast am from last year and Strieber was a guest he was very friendly to a caller till the caller questioned his beliefs by stating his own opinion and he was very nice about it. Wasn't a rude caller- Whitley was absolutely rude after that and would not let the man talk. I turned it off after that. I try to give the old goat a chance and every time he fails miserably. I think his unknown country is a good site for information but sometimes I feel like some of the people he promotes on there are out for a buck. That is what is wrong with Ufology today. Too many people are focusing on the big cheese when they should focus on how it is made so to speak.

I always liked UFO Hunters and was disappointed when it got cancled. Sometimes they would have some really good information. And of course sometimes you were more confused that before. jocolor

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PostSubject: Re: MJ-12 has me wondering    Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:36 pm

If Stanton Friedman or Kevin Randle are on a program to be interviewed, I always try to catch it. Both men are very intelligent and take the sane approach to ufology and the subjects related to them. We need more people like them, but many modern researchers are very fringe in their ideas.

Some even refer to Mr Friedman and Lt Col Randle as geezers, which speaks more about the name callers than the gentlemen they are referring to.
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